Thursday, June 30, 2005

comments

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19 Comments:

At 11:17 AM, Blogger Kevin said...

Loren, wow, you kicked over many sacred cows here. I agree, we are fighting a defeated foe and we have mixed so many human traditions in with biblical verses that we have rendered ourselves weak and at the mercy of Satan. The devil is real, he so distorts the truth that you believe a lie which gives him power he should not have.

I personally believe that when the bible addresses Satan as a snake in the garden it was not a snake! It was Satan himself. He is called a dragon also. Serpent is Lucifer’s name. No animal in the garden ever talked and Eve and Adam would have known that. The bible tells us that he was an angel of light. The fact that Eve was not alarmed at his presence tells me that she was used to seeing him around. If you study Isa 14 and Ezekiel 28 it tells us that Satan an angel walked in the Garden of God. We know angels are ministering spirits sent to minister to the heirs of salvation. I believe he was here with Adam and Eve and the fall occurred the day he tempted Eve. When you read the account in Rev 12, it states that Satan was booted from Heaven, and then they say; now salvation has come to men. I believe that at the resurrection, Jesus totally took all the rights the devil had away, took away all his authority, then relegated him to the earth and gave man dominion over him. I also do not believe he has access to heaven any more and that he is not accusing us before God day and night. God took care of that through Jesus. He accuses and condemns us, however, his deception over the years implies that he is much more powerful through religious deception than ever was intended.

I have always had a hard time believing that God would put Satan in the Garden with his Man and not tell them about the talking snake. It would be like turning a lion loose in your back yard then sending your five year old out to play knowing a lion was out there.

Hope this makes sense,

Kevin
Truck55@cox.net

 
At 7:15 AM, Blogger Cleopas said...

Hi Kevin,

You have some interesting insights in your comment. One conclusion I still am hesitant to reach is whether or not Satan still has access to heaven. We know that in the book of Job, he walked to and fro on the earth but appeared before God when summoned to do so.

Based on that passage in Revelation, I tend to agree with you that he no longer has that access to heaven, at least not unless he is summoned. But then again, Paul says our struggle is not with flesh and blood, but with spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. In that passage, Paul speaks of their presence in the heavenly places as the status quo at the time of his words.

I guess what I am leaning toward is an understanding that Revelation is, in that place, historical. It is telling us about the adversary's fall long ago.

When he was cast to the earth, he continued to exist in a spiritual world, but not necessarily the third heaven (as Paul called it), where God Himself dwells.

Instead, I think Paul's remark about 'spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places' refers to the spiritual dimension of the first heaven, i.e., the earth's atmosphere. In this sense, it is where his dominion has always been. This would explain why the enemy why the enemy is still referred to as 'the prince of the power of the air'. Any thoughts on that?

BTW, the 'second heaven' would be what we refer to as outer space.

I'll have to give some more thought to the part about the serpent. I know that a part of his judgment was that he would go on his belly and eat the dust, which would seem to speak of a snake as we know it today. In fact, evolutionists point to snakes in triumph to show that they probably once had legs; we use their conclusion to point to that same passage from Genesis, and thank them for the feather in our cap.

Thanks for reading the blog, Kevin. I've been noticing more traffic on it lately. So, when are you going to start your own blog? Or would you be interested in doing a joint blog with several contributors?

Loren

 
At 10:31 PM, Blogger Christian said...

The false conclusion that God would be unfair, imperfect just because he destroyed a whole race is unscriptural and it is just that a FALSE conclusion.
Angels (fallen) and demons are VERY different, Angels do not need a body, they can have a body at any time, demons are lost without a body, they are looking for a body to enter in.
The creatures that were destroyed at the first flood were completely destroyed, and in the second flood (Noah's) God wanted to destroy the WHOLE human race, proving if God would have done so he would not have been found imperfect.

 
At 6:47 AM, Blogger Cleopas said...

Hello friend,

First, thanks for stopping by. You seem to have some very strong feelings on your doctrinal position, but as I'm sure you'll agree, neither your feelings nor mine, your opinions nor mine, really matter once God Himself has spoken on a subject in Scripture.

Jesus referred to demons as angels in Matthew 25:41. In Revelation 1:20, He symbolically correlated angels with stars, then in Rev 12:4, He uses the very same symbolism to describe fallen angels.

Angels, like demons, are spirits (Ps 104:4). All spirits are capable of taking bodily form (for example, Luke 3:22).

Angels are also capable of taking on a human body of their very own, but those few who did so have already met with swift destruction from God, so none of the rest will dare to follow their example (Jude 1:6-7). Obviously then, these, too, were fallen angels, "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day."

As I pointed out in the main article, any teaching that views demons as the spirits of a pre-adamic race is completely unsupported by scripture. I didn't see any scriptural quotations in your response. We can discuss it if you like, but we'll have to use the scriptures or there's really no point. Also, your statement about a 'first' and 'second' flood is new, do you have any scriptures to support that conclusion?

It sounds like I've upset you, which is not my intention, but I understand that you feel defensive on behalf of your teacher, who taught you these things (Gal 4:16-17).

In closing, I would like to challenge you on something in broader terms. Since the time you became involved in your demonology teachings, have you really grown very much in looking at any other subjects in Christ? Or has your Christian walk pretty much found a new focal point there? Compare 1 Timothy 4:15-16 to 2 Timothy 3:8-9 and you'll see the point to be made from this.

BTW, my name is Loren, what's yours?

 
At 4:53 AM, Blogger eseaton2 said...

I believe you are right in some sense Satan is not the god of this world but is the god of this world system in it's fallen state god was not caught off guard He came as a man and did only what a man could do restore rightful dominion to Man (the last Adam not second that would suggest their could be another)man has dominion or authority,God has ownership. also the man was not tricked the woman was,man chose rebellion against God's word also take the bible more literally it was a snake and Lucifer was in the garden before he fell then became Satan in Genesis 3after his fall

 
At 3:19 PM, Blogger Nancy Waters said...

I was not aware that angels fallen or not, possessed people. Please clarify biblical that they are in fact fallen angels Jesus was casting out so that I can read this. Because I have never heard Jesus call out a demon from a person as a fallen angel verbally. As in I have never read Jesus say " Come out Fallen angel" I would like to find this, it would really help me to understand.

 
At 5:16 PM, Blogger Cleopas said...

Hello Nancy,

Good questions. If you're looking for a plain, definitive scriptural statement you will probably not be convinced. The argument is drawn from some strong, persistent scriptural inferences. Let me present them to you, and you can make up your own mind whether you think they're convincing or not:

First let's talk about Lucifer himself. Most Bible students agree that he is being referred to in Ezekiel 28:

12. "... You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.
17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground,I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you.
18 "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever." '

If you looked up this passage to check me out, you may have seen that 'the anointed cherub who covers' is also called the King of Tyre. Obviously this is not really talking about an earthly king, but is symbolic in some way. But symbolic of who? To connect this same basic thought to it's true personage, let's look at Isaiah 14:

12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit."

Continued Part B, Below:

 
At 5:17 PM, Blogger Cleopas said...

Part B (continued from above)

If you'll read a little further in this passage, you'll see that it goes on to match the Ezekiel passage in other ways. So if you agree that the match is fair, then you have Lucifer himself as the anointed cherub (angel), who became lifted up with pride and fell.

From there, the easiest case to make about the demons is in Matthew 25:41, where Jesus says, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

So then, not only is Lucifer brought down to the pit, but other angels, 'his' angels, go with him. To give the background on this thought and tie it all together, let's go to one more place:

In the book of Revelation, Jesus appears holding seven stars in His right hand, and He later explains that the seven stars actually represent seven angels (Rev 1:20).

Using that imagery with the stars consistently, let us go on now to Rev 12:

3. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven [angels] and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is probably the clearest passage about fallen angels who work with Satan. But are they the same thing as demons? Everything seems to add up to that. The word 'demon' itself is a Greek word, meaning an inferior deity. Maybe not too inappropriate for a fallen angel.

So, why not just call them fallen angels? Just as a guess, it's because they are considered that much of a separate class now. Like 'student' and 'dropout' may be a class distinction; no one says 'student dropout', it is understood that the dropout was formerly a student. Just my guess, but it seems to explain the whole body of scripture on the subject.

Now for the last part of your question, about calling out fallen angels. Of course, Jesus casts out demons and He calls them that, or He calls them foul spirits or evil spirits. And if you think the arguments above are convincing enough, that would be the link. By casting out demons, He is casting out fallen angels. But here is another thought:

True angels are never supposed to 'possess' anyone. One might argue that some lesser degree of it is implied anyway, when an angel 'strengthens' someone -- Your guess is as good as mine. But our spirits are fully capable of receiving another spirit, for example, when we are filled with the Holy Spirit and God dwells in our hearts by faith. That's the way it should be. My guess is that demons, who are spirits, are invading that same spiritual space, within persons who are not spirit filled. Because once they are spirit filled, the stronger man guards the house and his good are kept in peace.

I hope this has helped. Be blessed.

Loren

 
At 6:08 PM, Blogger Scott Williams said...

Hello,

I have to disagree with your post on that the Bible does not show the possibility of Demons being Disembodied spirits from the Pre-Adamic world.

So let's start by talking about Fallen Angels. It has been assumed that Fallen Angels are synonomous with Demons and that they are one in the same. This is not true. The Bible gives us the location of these beings and teaches that Fallen Angels have been chained in Hell awaiting Judgment (2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6)so they are "not" roaming the earth. The second point is that the two scriptures you gave (Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 1:20) does not give evidence of this either. This is simply referring to the Fallen Angels being finally judged and thrown into the "Lake Of Fire". Hell/Hades is a current holding place for lost souls/beings who will "eventually be put into the Lake Of Fire after the final judgement. Revelation 20:14 teaches that Death/Hell will be "cast" into the Lake Of Fire proving that Hell and the Lake Of Fire are two distinct places. So the Fallen Angels currently chained in Hell awaiting judgment will be thrown into the Lake Of Fire at some point but are not roaming the earth but in chains.

Next, there is evidence of a possible Pre-Adamic world, In Genesis 1:1 it says that "God created the heavens and the Earth". Then Gen 1:2 says that Earth was without form and void and darkness was on the face of the deep. If you stop and think for minute, there is a BIG problem here. How did the earth become without form and void and full of darkness? God is LIGHT and there is no darkness in him. God is perfection and everything he creates is good. We automatically assume when reading this passage that Genesis 1:2 came right after 1:1 in the timeline. However this suggest that there could have been possibly thousands of years (or more) that could have passed between 1:1 and 1:2. Because God originally created the earth in perfection but something must have occured (a chain of events) for the earth to now be "without form, void and full of darkness". Gen 1:2 suggests a world of darkness and choas. This suggest that there could have been other created beings here on earth that disobeyed God and were cursed along with the earth itself (between 1:1 and 1:2). So the Genesis 1:2 story possibly becomes a story of "re-creation" and "replenishing" the earth. There is the distinct possibility that there were created beings who once had physical bodies that were destroyed who now roam the earth without bodies in spirit form and will also be thrown in the Lake Of Fire in Revelation.

Third. You mentioned that God would have tried to help or had an obligation to "save" these beings if they indeed fell or sinned the same way that he provided salvation for man. This doesnt have to be necessarily true. Let's look at Angels. Angels are created beings by God who have a spiritual body/form and they have distinct personalities (like us). However, there is a BIG difference because although Angels are created beings, there is no salvation for Fallen Angels. They apparently have the "ability" to choose like we do but once they sinned against God their fate was sealed and no salvation was provided for them.

Could it be that if God had created beings/creatures in the pre-Adamic world, they were similar to Angels in that there was no salvation provided for them if they disobeyed and then they eventually "did" disobey God, which resulted in death, darkness and the destruction of the original earth.

Just some food for thought.

 
At 6:18 PM, Blogger Scott Williams said...

Hello,

I have to disagree with your post on that the Bible does not show the possibility of Demons being Disembodied spirits from the Pre-Adamic world.

So let's start by talking about Fallen Angels. It has been assumed that Fallen Angels are synonomous with Demons and that they are one in the same. This is not true. The Bible gives us the location of these beings and teaches that Fallen Angels have been chained in Hell awaiting Judgment (2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6)so they are "not" roaming the earth. The second point is that the two scriptures you gave (Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 1:20) does not give evidence of this either. This is simply referring to the Fallen Angels being finally judged and thrown into the "Lake Of Fire". Hell/Hades is a current holding place for lost souls/beings who will "eventually be put into the Lake Of Fire after the final judgement. Revelation 20:14 teaches that Death/Hell will be "cast" into the Lake Of Fire proving that Hell and the Lake Of Fire are two distinct places. So the Fallen Angels currently chained in Hell awaiting judgment will be thrown into the Lake Of Fire at some point but are not roaming the earth but in chains.

Next, there is evidence of a possible Pre-Adamic world, In Genesis 1:1 it says that "God created the heavens and the Earth". Then Gen 1:2 says that Earth was without form and void and darkness was on the face of the deep. If you stop and think for minute, there is a BIG problem here. How did the earth become without form and void and full of darkness? God is LIGHT and there is no darkness in him. God is perfection and everything he creates is good. We automatically assume when reading this passage that Genesis 1:2 came right after 1:1 in the timeline. However this suggest that there could have been possibly thousands of years (or more) that could have passed between 1:1 and 1:2. Because God originally created the earth in perfection but something must have occured (a chain of events) for the earth to now be "without form, void and full of darkness". Gen 1:2 suggests a world of darkness and choas. This suggest that there could have been other created beings here on earth that disobeyed God and were cursed along with the earth itself (between 1:1 and 1:2). So the Genesis 1:2 story possibly becomes a story of "re-creation" and "replenishing" the earth. There is the distinct possibility that there were created beings who once had physical bodies that were destroyed who now roam the earth without bodies in spirit form and will also be thrown in the Lake Of Fire in Revelation.

Third. You mentioned that God would have tried to help or had an obligation to "save" these beings if they indeed fell or sinned the same way that he provided salvation for man. This doesnt have to be necessarily true. Let's look at Angels. Angels are created beings by God who have a spiritual body/form and they have distinct personalities (like us). However, there is a BIG difference because although Angels are created beings, there is no salvation for Fallen Angels. They apparently have the "ability" to choose like we do but once they sinned against God their fate was sealed and no salvation was provided for them.

Could it be that if God had created beings/creatures in the pre-Adamic world, they were similar to Angels in that there was no salvation provided for them if they disobeyed and then they eventually "did" disobey God, which resulted in death, darkness and the destruction of the original earth.

Just some food for thought.

 
At 6:36 AM, Blogger Cleopas said...

Hello Scott,
Thanks for stopping by and sharing. I have to start by saying it is a real pleasure talking to someone who has obviously spent a lot of time on the subject and studied things out in the word. You seem to be a very mature Christian so I think we can have a frank and honest discussion.
On any scriptural controversy, it has been my practice to start with the premise. If the premise is true, one must challenge their own objectivity in the matter to consider it fairly; if not, ‘the ax must be laid to the root of the trees’, that is, to the premise, since it is impossible to draw a true conclusion from a faulty premise. In a similar way, Jesus spoke of two people who built houses. From every appearance, they both looked very nice when they were finished; yet one was built on the rock, and the other on the sand – I’m sure you know the story (Matt 7:24-27). In just such a manner, many modern beliefs have grown and become systematized with exciting, interactive understandings, and by the time they reach that point their structure seems very impressive indeed. It takes a discerning heart and a certain resolve to make one’s self look deeper, to examine the foundation (which may now be out of sight), to see if it can really bear the weight of all those following arguments, and to walk away from the whole structure if it cannot.
I’ve noticed that in your approach, you’ve taken the premise of the ‘possibilities’ that Scripture could ‘allow’ for. But that is not the same thing as what they positively teach. In such relatively open instances, we (including me) must always be careful not to insert a doctrine of men as the teaching of God. I’m sure the other readers will consider your concerns fairly, and well as mine, and we must both leave it up to the Lord to be their real teacher, and ours. Now, on to the particulars:
I am glad that you have paired 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6 together, because they do belong together. But I think you will find something uniquely expressed there. In that passage, Peter is not talking about Hades or Gehenna (the Lake of fire). But a special place called Tartarus. It is the only time that this Greek word appears in the New Testament. Jude explains a little more fully by likening the conduct of those particular angels to that of Sodom and Gomorrah, who gave themselves to sexual immorality, went after strange flesh, and were therefore set forth as an example. I won’t go so far as making this into a doctrine, but to my mind he seems to be referring to the situation of Genesis 6:4, where ‘the sons of God came in to the daughters of men’. He is describing how that situation was dealt with and showing us why that abuse was never repeated (though their descendants lived on for a while in the form of the Anakim, etc). Anyway, this passage was the basis for your argument that all fallen angels are in chains and are not free to roam the earth; but if it only applies to the certain group that I’ve mentioned, the others are not so bound and they do roam the earth (see Job 1:6-7; Revelation 12:9).
(continued below)

 
At 6:38 AM, Blogger Cleopas said...

I agree with your other statement that Hades is a holding place for the dead, and that one day Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. But if there really was a pre-adamic race, why would their souls not be confined in Hades as well? You have previously allowed that both angels and men are there, and are not free to roam, and you’ve conceded the similarity of such a pre-adamic race to the angels, except for death. And even given such an ability for them to roam, why would they have a propensity to do so, and fall in league with the devil in so doing? If God was displeased with them and destroyed them because of it, as the teaching generally concludes, then wouldn't that result have made the situation even worse?
Just to clarify, my own understanding is that the souls of men are in Hades, some angels are in Tartarus, but most of them still roam the earth – though they will one day be thrown into everlasting fire as well (Matt 25:41). In the two comments previous to yours, I’ve discussed the basis for believing that demons are, in fact, fallen angels.
Going on to your argument about the creation. I think it’s very clear from the Genesis account that the earth was created as a formless mass, and the next five days were spent in giving it form. All of the particulars in the process are there, not just metaphorically, but very literally. At the end of each day is a statement about the evening and the morning being one day, just like now. Six days of creation, not thousands of years. Honestly, I just don’t know how much clearer God could have been about it. I have come to the sad conclusion that Christians have adopted the ‘thousands of years’ approach because they believe secular science more than they believe God, and they are trying to make excuses for Him; and that the pre-adamic race theory is their apology to explain cave men. But I would answer as God answered Job, in challenging him over the intricacies of creation: “Do you know it because you were born then, because the number of your days is great?” God really can make that claim, but can we? Was not Adam created as a fully grown, mature man? Then could God not have spent five days giving earth the form of a fully mature planet? I think it is dangerous to base any of our beliefs on reactions to non-scriptural beliefs, especially ones that are so clearly hostile to Scripture in the first place, such as modern science has become (a subject for another day).
Sometimes, the simplest arguments are the best. Genesis 1:5 describes the ‘first day’, so how could there have been a day previous to that? And this 'day' was not just in relation to the earth, but to the heavens. 1 Corinthians 15:45 describes Adam as the first man; and then Jesus became the first of a new race of mankind, being the firstborn from the dead: a whole new race, yet he is referred to as the ‘second man’ (vs 47). But if there really was a pre-adamic race, wouldn’t Adam have been the second man, and Jesus the third?

 
At 12:50 AM, Blogger Anthony C said...

I dont understand something if God utterly destroying a pre adamic race would be tantamount to God being shortsighted and admitting to a mistake and there fore not being perfect then how can you say God destroying most of the human race in the flood is not the same thing? In genesis it says " and God was exceedingly sorry he had made man" that sounds to me like God is admitting to a mistake therefore how can God be perfect?

 
At 7:47 AM, Blogger Cleopas said...

Hi Anthony,

The difference is that, in the flood situation, mankind continued. There was also a similar occasion when God thought about wiping out Israel, but told Moses he would continue through him and his seed (Moses pleaded with the Lord, so there was mercy on Israel instead.)

The argument was, that if the pre-adamic race scenario really had any basis in truth, mankind would have continued then, as well. The reason it didn't turn out that way is because there was never a pre-adamic race in the first place.

Hope that helps.

 
At 11:11 PM, Blogger Anthony C said...

Thanks for the reply but it still does not answer my question. If the bible which is "without error" states God was " sorry he had ever made man" then it is stating that God made a mistake. How else can "was sorry he had ever made man" be interpreted?

 
At 11:12 PM, Blogger Anthony C said...

Thanks for the reply but it still does not answer my question. If the bible which is "without error" states God was " sorry he had ever made man" then it is stating that God made a mistake. How else can "was sorry he had ever made man" be interpreted?

 
At 7:58 AM, Blogger Cleopas said...

Hi again Anthony,

It strikes me that there's a deeper, broader issue here for you, with some further applications you're not mentioning, so to begin with, let's remove the word you inadvertently added and then take another look:

God never said He was sorry He 'ever' created men. At the time, when man ('him') was created, God had said that man was 'good'. Something changed by the time He was talking about men ('them') in Genesis 6:7.

Of course, the fall of man had taken place in the meantime.

Next, let's focus on the Hebrew word for 'sorry' ('nacham') as explained in Strong's:

naw-kham'; a primitive root; properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself):

The real meaning is not: "Guess I made a mistake"; it is more like a heartfelt sigh: "This is a turning into a grief to my heart; corrective action is needed."

If God really considered it a complete 'mistake' from the beginning, then why would he have warned Noah at all? Let him die with the rest. This was His chance to erase everything.

Instead, God worked through a remnant and preserved His original work; He gave mankind a fresh start. If there had really been a pre-adamic race, he would have done the same for them for the same reasons (Malachi 3:6).

Bottom line: men make mistakes, but God doesn't. It was the fall of man, not a pre-fallen, mistake-prone God; and God, by His grace, works with fallen men who will trust in Him.

I hope this helps.

 
At 2:27 AM, Blogger Dave Quin said...

Evidently, Adam was created in God's image and he was the first man. However, if one believes there was a world before Adam which was destroyed, then it could be that the hominids of that world were not created a God's image. After all, God is not obligated to create beings in His image. The Bible describes the creation beginning with Adam but there are sufficient references throughout, suggesting another world before Adam one in which Satan was appointed ruler over and emissary to God the Creator. Satan chose to rebel and it is likely, he garnered the support of the beings that he ruled over. Isaiah 14:12 states, "How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!? The verse is alluding to a perioid before Adam when Satan rebelled against God. When Adam was created, Satan was already a fallen angel. The verse also states that Satan ":laid low the nations." What nations? The nations that existed at the time of his rebellion!

 
At 9:37 AM, Blogger Cleopas said...

Hello Dave,

Thank you for stopping by. I’ve been thinking about your remarks; you’ve obviously given this matter some thought, and a respectful reply is in order.
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As you may see in the first part of my response to Scott Williams (above), there is an ancient problem that has long distressed the church, which I am very concerned over. It is something that Jesus Himself addressed in one of His earliest parables, the parable of building on the rock. The application I would give that parable, in this case, is that a good teaching must begin with a solid scriptural premise: a doctrinal, creedal statement, from somewhere in scripture, that sets out the basic belief in a comprehensive form. With this solid rock as a foundation, we can build on the doctrine with further scriptures and develop it with confidence.
.
Honestly, this underlying ‘rock’ is something I’ve just never seen with the pre-adamic race teachings. There is no verse that plainly states, ‘there was a pre-adamic race that God destroyed, and their souls became the spirits of demons.’ The doctrine simply supposes that premise to be so, and then attempts to use other scriptures to support that premise. In that manner, without being founded on a rock, the structure of the teaching ascends; it may even seem impressive after a while. But we must train ourselves to look for that foundation still, to see if the belief was ever well-founded if the first place. And if not, we must have the courage to walk away from the whole structure, however intellectually impressive it may now seem. But I know others must reach their own conclusions in this matter, so please allow me to address some of the specific points you’ve raised:
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Like most of us, you have assumed that Satan’s rebellion in heaven, in which he drew one-third of the angels after him (described in Revelation 12), took place before the creation of mankind. But I’ve had to re-examine that position lately, so let me share some of those thoughts and see what you think of them:
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When God created the earth, the angels still appeared to be in complete harmony with Him (Job 38:4-7). Man was created on the sixth day, and afterward the Garden of Eden was planted (Genesis 2:8). This is important, because Satan was shown in Eden while still in an unfallen state (Ezekiel 28:13). Therefore, his fall could not have preceded the creation of man. It must have come sometime soon afterward.
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In a similar way, recall that in describing the creation of heaven and earth (Genesis 1:1), The scriptures summarized on the sixth day by saying "God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.". (Gen 1:31) So by the end of the sixth day, the rebellion had still not taken place.
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After leading one-third of the angels in rebellion soon afterward, Satan quickly made a similar assault on man (notice how the terms of his own fall and ours were so similar: ‘ye shall be as gods’).
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Now for the concern you’ve raised over the fallen nations. The frame of reference, given in Isaiah 14, is when we all shall see him and gaze upon him. But when will that be? Paul spoke of a futuristic day when we would judge angels (1 Cor 6:3), and the concept of judgment involves looking back in retrospect. Therefore, I’ve always thought it most likely that Isaiah spoke in reference to that futuristic day. By then, Satan’s continued efforts to destroy the nation will be fully comprehensible (because he doesn’t seem to be finished yet!)
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For further thoughts in these areas, please follow the link below:
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http://onspiritualwarfare.blogspot.com/2005/07/areas-of-dominion.html

 

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